Theory From the Closet

Mar

Show030: Mutualism is dead?

by clyde

Here’s the first of those issue based podcasts I’ve been talking about. In this show I have Vincent Baker, Luke Crane, and my occasionally interrupting self, discussing Mutualism and whether it’s dead in the Indie-Punk scene. I came in with the dead opinion, but this discussion convinced me I was wrong. Not just that I was wrong, but that my opinion might be a bit insulting considering the help that is available to me. I realized I just haven’t asked many people for help. I’d love to hear what other folks think. I’ll add the link to the interviews Luke is doing, which is mentioned at the beginning of the podcast as soon as I know that he has them up.

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elmago79 1 year ago 1 point
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That was a pretty intense show! One of the finest you've made.

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John (Jenskot) 1 year ago 1 point
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Clyde thanks for putting this together. It's a very personal topic for me and I'm very happy it's being discussed.

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http://www.nerdnyc.com

Stefan Lahr 1 year ago 1 point
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Awesome show!

...and BE is too damn pretty, and i soo have it on my shelf...

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Johnstone 1 year ago 1 point
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I posted a comment on show 025 and I was right! Ha!

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Tim 1 year ago 1 point
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Clyde, you know that I have been bugging you for years now to come join our games and let us help you playtest SKMAV or any other game you may develop. The invitation is still open!

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luke 1 year ago 1 point
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I'd like to go public and confirm that Vincent and I did speak post-interviews (we did two), and reaffirmed our mutual commitments to respecting the shit out of each other and doing these things that we do.

I cross-posted this on Vincent's blog.

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http://www.burningwheel.com

Troy_Costisick 1 year ago 1 point
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Heya,

To Luke and Vincent, thanks for having the guts to share your experiences with everyone. Your frankness was very educational.

To Clyde, thanks for provoking such interesting conversations. All in all, you do a really good job facilitating discussions on your podcast. Thanks for letting us listen :)

Peace,

-Troy

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http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com

Ogre 1 year ago 1 point
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This is one of the best shows you've done, Clyde. Congratulations.

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http://stabbingcontest.libsyn.com/

clyde 1 year ago 1 point
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Hey Folks,

Thanks. A lot of the credit should go to Luke though, he came up with the idea. I was just smart enough to nod. There is actually another interesting issue filled discussion that he set up at Dreamation and again... I just nodded.

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http://www.theoryfromthecloset.com

Comrade Andrew 1 year ago 1 point
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Damn. This was a hard interview to listen to. Was it late at night or were there chemicals involved? ;o)

Either way, it sounds to me that the mutualism was sunk by self-interest (rather than other-interest or game-interest). The money just exposed the hidden motivations. And maybe the sheer size of the community meant that the community collapsed under its own decentralised weight.

However, this opinion is based only on the interview, built on a critique of exploitative capitalism. Thanks for the honesty.

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http://tabletopmanifesto.blogspot.com

clyde 1 year ago 1 point
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Hey folks,

Give me some time to talk with Andrew please?

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http://www.theoryfromthecloset.com

clyde 1 year ago 1 point
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Hey Andrew,

I'm a bit hesitant to reply as I'm not sure what tone to read your comment in. It seems it can either be read friendly with a bit of flippancy for fun, or an attempt at a jab.

I would normally just ignore the second, so to make sure I'm respectful to someone I haven't interacted with yet... I'm assuming the friendly tone.

I think it's interesting that you draw the conclusion that Mutualism is dead, especially since I came to this discussion with that opinion and left convinced that mutualism isn't dead. I somewhat get what you are saying about the center not holding. I made that statement at some point during the podcast which Vincent quickly objected too. After having time to think about it I'm not sure I agree with Vincent. That's likely a conversation for another time....

I think we have likely just exceeded Dunbar's number (150), or... those other guys who say 290... anyway, there was a bit of splitting with a lot of cross connections still maintained. On the other hand, I've had help from folks from all over so maybe I'm wrong.

What I'm curious about is how you come to your conclusion? Can you explain further? Thanks.

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http://www.theoryfromthecloset.com

Comrade Andrew 1 year ago 1 point
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Clyde - thanks for picking up on this, and yes it's meant to be a tone of respectful critique rather than cowardly anonymous criticism. Here's how I reached my conclusion. I apologise for the length of this as I have not had time to make it shorter.

Mutualism appears to have arisen as a phenomenon within the group. It starts as friendly help by people willing to be involved in something ... anything ... to help develop this new thing. From the account given in the interview it seems as though the phenomenon encountered two difficulties: the success of an individual as a result of community effort; and the movement from mutualism as a phenomenon to a cultural expectation/demand.

In the face of these two difficulties it seems that the group was unable to maintain itself as a single group, but is forced to collapse under its own weight. Theoreticians of mutualism as a political movement would suggest this is a good thing, because it prevents the community from building a tower of Babel (so to speak) and forces the group to engage in genuine giving rather than a giving that comes from cultural or societal expectations.

Did mutualism die at the Forge? It sounds like it, and I venture that it was probably necessary so that it could be resurrected in smaller groups over a larger scale.

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http://tabletopmanifesto.blogspot.com

clyde 1 year ago 1 point
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Hey Andrew,

Thanks. I understand you much better now.

The cultural expectation / demand really hits home as that is where I was at. I think I just expected help as a right, that folks should just be reaching out and giving advice rather than me needing to ask / deserve help. I find this interesting as it is well outside my normal behavior. I'm still growing it appears.

I'm not sure I agree about Mutualism dying at the Forge, but that's likely not a fruitful discussion as it has to do with perception. Also having my thoughts turned over from this podcast, I'm not certain exactly what I think. Heh.

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http://www.theoryfromthecloset.com

clyde 1 year ago 1 point
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Hey Folks,

Just in case anyone has been waiting, please feel free to post again.

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Comrade Andrew 1 year ago 1 point
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Thanks for the clarifying question, Clyde. Sorry to clog your blog.

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http://tabletopmanifesto.blogspot.com

clyde 1 year ago 1 point
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Dude, don't talk crazy. You aren't clogging anything up. I allow comments because I want to have the ability for people to tell me what they think and engage in a conversation with me.

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http://www.theoryfromthecloset.com