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Salbutamol FOR SALE, Show051: Interview with Chris Perrin and Clyde L. Rhoer

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15 Responses to “Salbutamol FOR SALE”

  1. Johnstone says:

    Really interesting discussion, guys, about both games.

    As for you game, Clyde… If you tell me a game is about molestation, I'm not gonna touch it with a ten foot pole. I don't even wanna be in the room with people playing it. Not to say I'm that guy who thinks you shouldn't talk about it… but I kinda might be the guy who doesn't really want to listen so much.

    Even so, I gave the pdf you posted a quick read a while back. I think it is a very clear, well-written game with nothing objectionable about it. It reads like a game about personal growth and responsibility (and cool fantasy weirdness), not abuse. Having listened to your show, I really didn't expect the “poo throwing” game, but I was still pleasantly surprised.

  2. Hey Johnstone,

    I really appreciate that you gave it a read in spite of the way its been sold. I also accept that it makes you uncomfortable. That's kind of the point. It's disturbing and makes us all uncomfortable. Thanks for being honest about that discomfort.

    If you're curious about the “poo throwing,” here's a link, that should give a decent idea of what I mean. If you don't have the time, then imagine a game with An abuser who does harm to the masked children.

    The good writing is likely more Thor Olavsrud than me. He's really good at his job.

  3. Johnstone says:

    Don't sell yourself short, man, getting good editing is part of writing well.

    As to that version of the game… yeah, pretty much. I'm not against making people feel uncomfortable, if it makes a constructive point, but in rpgs it seems to me it would just backfire too often and make you unpopular.

    I think what you have now will provoke more (and better) discussion, actually, because its more about the recovery process than the abuse. Plus, like the flat scenes you're proposing – you can't just *make* people discuss it with you, by confronting them. But if they play the game and think its cool, *then* you tell them what its about, I think more often than not will want to discuss it with you.

  4. Rich Rogers says:

    Clyde and Chris,

    This was the first time I'd listened to the audio of this interview. This is a fantastic interview and it was odd to hear a Canon Puncture Show interview done in a Theory from the Closet style (i.e. no editing). The part where Clyde *pickled* himself was joyful. Do you mind if I pull out the bump you did for Canon Puncture, Clyde?

    SKMaV is such a hard sell – a indie game for two players about molestation… a niche within a niche in an hobby in decline. Clyde, I admire your courage to make this! If I can get my wife to play, I would like to try it, but I would need to turn a blind eye to the meta-textual content to sell her on it (and me, it just makes me so sad and angry to think about molestation of kids, especially now that I have a son). If the themes are strong enough, I think the message will still get through though.

    I found it interesting how you paused after saying one of the playtests was “fun”. do you think the game shouldn't be fun? Or was the pause because you were having fun, but the game didn't fit your vision?

    Perrin, you really nailed this interview. I'm happy to hear in its raw form and part of Theory from the Closet.

  5. Hey Rich,

    You can do anything with my show that you want as long as you give credit, and release that work under the share-alike license. I realize you're asking for something more friendly, which is no problem, I just like to mention the license. I've got no problem with you using it as it was meant for you in the first place. Email me, and I'll stick a waveform in a place you can download it from easily. That way you have a better copy. I'll make it a bit bigger than the bump so you can edit it to what you like.

    The text of the game talks bluntly about what the game is about for me, and why I'm designing it. The flat scenes have no such requirement, and I'm really starting to realize I may have sold it badly. Do you have a copy?

    The game that worked well created a good story and was fun. Not fun– WooHoo, but fun as in a good story for most of the players. You can read that version of the game and likely very easily play it with the rules link and discussion in this thread:

    Now that I've had more time to think about it, the main thing I didn't like was the freedom it gave the players in defining the child. It let them step around the child being in a sad, vulnerable state, and that felt wrong. It would mean they didn't need to heal. It's a good game and has it's merits, but it's not what I wanted to achieve. It plays like a lot of stake setting Indy games from like 2006 so should be pretty easy to figure out.

    The game as it is now is not fun, it's draining. I don't want to run it for people. It can be really cool watching someone take on a metaphor of something that was harmful to you… maybe it even helps diminish it, but the game also gives me too much understanding of things they're keeping below the surface. It makes me feel like I opened their diary and read a page. That makes me not eager to run it for anyone, and is the big stall point. I can't run it, no one else has either, so it's stuck.

  6. Also since the child can't talk it really stretches your GM as entertainer muscles, and that likely also leads to the feeling of it being draining. I've always thought of it as a game you wouldn't play more than a few times, and it seems to be holding up to that. Ha.

  7. Rich Rogers says:

    Now I'm listening to Clyde interview Perrin (actually, it is more of a discussion than an interview).

    Perrin, the meat of your drive to make this game is very compelling to me. I wish I'd heard this back when you wanted to playtest it.

    Now I wish we'd played it in a real world setting face-to-face rather than over Skype and in the Dune setting.

  8. I've been listening to TFTC for a while, and this is the best episode I've yet heard. As a gamer, I felt challenged about my gameplay; as a theologian, I wished I was there to add to the debate.

    Great work, Clyde (and Chris), for the challenge and the inspiration.

  9. Hey, thanks again Andrew. Glad you're still enjoying the show. I'm curious, what did you want to add?

  10. Yeah… I noticed I was a bit more forward with my opinions. I think part was being on Canon Puncture, and the other part was I didn't know a lot about Messiah.

  11. There were probably a few areas about which I could have opined, but the one that sticks in my mind arose when Chris was talking about how the world would react to a divine avatar, or a messiah. Leaving aside the distinctions between avatars, messiahs and christs for a moment, I would have added a little from my current work on Kierkegaard.

    His opinion was that a genuinely divine revelation is characterised by (amongst other things) being offensive to people. That is to say, when a person is confronted with a divine message, it will offend them. His used of “offend” is probably best thought of as something like “challenge the foundations of core beliefs and lifestyle” but not in a contemplative way – it's in a way that forces a decision. For Kierkegaard, a divine message was incompatible and incommensurable with the established order. One will always attempt to destroy the other (thus, Kierkegaard opposes any form of theocracy).

    Chris' game seems to be about this moment of offense, and the reactions and responses to that offense. “What would you do if the foundations of your beliefs were threatened with destruction?” Great question.

  12. Rich Rogers says:


    I believe I do have your email at home on my gmail account, I will shoot you a request shortly.

  13. Clyde and Chris, this was a fantastic episode, incredibly candid and offering excellent windows into both of you as people and game designers. I saw both your games at GC and failed to engage with either; as I listen to you talk about the games, I realize that the Ashcan Front format may have hindered both in “selling” what your games were really about to people. I look forward to having an opportunity to look at both games with fresh eyes if only to give some better feedback.

    I'm still digesting the conversation. I wish I could have been there at times to add to the conversation, which to me is the hallmark of a great podcast interview/conversation. I'll come back later with more once I hear it again.

  14. Micah says:

    I finally finished getting through listening to all of the back episodes, but I wanted to comment on this episode specifically because it stands out as one of the best in the series.

    The game discussion was really interesting for the game theory and design as well as the subject matter of both of the games. It was really inspiring to me. I like how both of you have done games that explore things that are so personal and important to you. It changes my understanding of what game design is for (or, rather, can be for).

    One thing that I wanted to point out to you Clyde, is that your explanation of Bangs in this episode was far more clear and concise than either of your other attempts in previous episodes. I think you really benefit from having another person to interact with. It's something you might want to consider as you do more theory episodes.

  15. Hey Micah,

    Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. On the subject of bangs… I hear your point. I also think the more clear explanation is also due to my increased understanding of what a bang is… compared to two or so years ago. I do agree that my shows with other people are much more interesting, than my solo shows. Heh, we can't all be Tevis. I think though that there are times when a solo show is a better way to deliver the particular information I have.

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