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Show061: Interview with Keith Senkowski and Matt Synder

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15 Responses to “Amoxicillin FOR SALE”

  1. Tim Jensen says:

    Another great interview, Clyde. This one is really making me think.

    On the one hand, my experiences since discovering indie & story games don’t match Matt’s, insofar as I have no shortage of friends willing to try new or unconventional games.

    On the other hand, breaking into new markets and bringing in future generations of gamers is a goal worthy of pursuit. So, why not be the change that is needed? Why aren’t more independent designers running their games at Comic-Con? Or making full use of the free marketing power of Facebook, Youtube and Twitter? Why are small press game book publishers not also releasing their game as an iphone and android app? You don’t need to mortgage your house to do those things; just a little time, ingenuity and guts.

  2. Fantastic. I know where Matt was coming from, but it was a surprise to see that he’s not alone. Coming from a very different background (me and my “company” are a result of the d20 boom), I’ve always had a very different aesthetic than the Forge-born crew and it clashed. I see Matt’s efforts of late as something that bridges that gap in a very worthwhile manner.

  3. [...] circle-jerk of game design inbreeding? I’d like to think not, but the latest episode of Theory From the Closet has me [...]

  4. Someone commented that WotC is pushing their marketing efforts as if they’re not aware of current tech (xbox, online, etc). I think this is very off the mark.

    If you look at the various things they’re doing, they are very clearly aware of other demands on people’s attentions these days. They’ve partnered with Penny Arcade, a webcomic with readership in the millions. They’re trying to reach out with podcasts and youtube videos. They have online tools.

    Yes, some of their efforts in these areas are not as effective as others, but they’re clearly aware of the various mediums that are fighting for a gamer’s attention these days.

  5. [...] which is where (shock horror) marketing comes in. If you haven’t listened to Clyde’s Interview with Keith and Matt, you [...]

  6. jessecoombs says:

    Clyde, do you have a link to the bullseye rpg that was talked about?

  7. clyde says:

    It’s Show045. If you put Bullseye in the unlabeled search box on the top right of the page it will take you to that episode, and contains a link to the Bullseye wiki.

  8. I was just excited to hear someone else with any level of sophistication in fantasy writing. Look gamers, just because Jim Butcher was a gamer does not mean you need to read his books. Read people who are good, not people who game.

  9. Brett Myers says:

    There were several moments when I mentally shouted, “CITATION NEEDED,” most often when talking about the growth or lack thereof, of the industry/market. Anecdotal observation is not reliable.

  10. clyde says:

    Hey Brett,

    I’m not sure I understand, can you expand on that thought?

  11. Brett Myers says:

    Well, just that there are segments where they’re talking about growth, and contradicting each other in some cases, that one or both of them say the market/audience is not growing, and I’d just like to know if they have actual data to back that up.

    They tend to contradict each other a fair amount or seem to be at odds with the others’ opinions.

    I do wonder what sort of solution (couldn’t keep the names straight, so let’s call him) Compromise Design Principles Guy has for reaching a broader and younger audience. In my limited experience, the indie/story games tend toward mature/sophisticated concepts that I just don’t see appealing to teens. Is his Great Compromise mechanical in nature or thematic? Shab Al Hiri Roach is a pretty simple game mechanically, but thematically, it’s right over the head of your average late teen, probably even early twenty-something, and I think that holds true for a majority of indie games.

    How is he suggesting Annalise (unsure of spelling) be dumbed down to appeal to a broader audience? (that’s what he’s suggesting but with different words) Is it the game mechanics that don’t appeal or the story setting? Or is he suggesting indie designers forgo the dark/adult/mature/interesting/etc game ideas for themes that appeal to Tony Hawk fans?

  12. clyde says:

    Hey Brett,

    Their point of divergence was Matt was talking about targeting a larger gaming crowd, not teens. To do that I believe he was espousing a more general game design over the specific focused game design that Indie games tend to have. I’m not sure he ever mentioned a great compromise.

    Keith was talking about targeting other markets like at PAX. I don’t believe he was saying you needed to design differently, folks have already been having success there, like Burning Wheel. He was talking more about getting to a new market outside of folks who attend Gen Con.

    As far as Market data… there’s so many indie designers it would be difficult to be factual. If you were to use booth size and the number of folks not selling games who were a few years ago, I might argue it’s actually a smidge smaller. It certainly doesn’t look like it did a few years ago.

  13. Brett Myers says:

    Great Compromise is my term. That was a big point of his argument – that indie designers would need to design games differently to appeal to a broader audience. The hippie games don’t appeal to Joe Pathfinder, so designers should make games that bridge the gap. They specifically said designers should make sacrifices to appeal to more gamers and that a good game is one that is financially successful.

    You guys made a point of mentioning how old the indie crowd was getting and the fact that all the “kids” are into card games and not rpgs/indie games. I’m just extrapolating that into marketing to teens and early twenty-somethings.

    If people are already having success at cons like PAX, who is the “we” Keith is talking about? “We’re [stuck here at Gencon], etc.” Does he mean there should be a Forge-like booth at PAX or what? “We [the less successful indie game designers]” should get a booth at PAX?

    It’s that kind of generality that unfortunately permeates this conversation. I listened to the interview twice, and pretty much I get “It would be nice to be able to sell more books, and we’re frustrated that we can’t and we think Marketing is the answer, but we don’t really know quite what to do about it.”

  14. clyde says:

    Hey Brett,

    It seems apparent there is a lot of mutual context we relied on in that discussion. That would be my failure. My job was to ferret that out.

    Matt isn’t postulating anything more radical than say what happened with Nanuk. Once you turned it over to Steve Jackson, they made changes based on their conception, or understanding, of the audience they were trying to reach. He’s suggesting much the same, but since for creator owned roleplaying games there isn’t a separate development team, or a research fund; He’s suggesting some people, not all people, perhaps give an audience consideration at the design phase. So he’s designing a game to test this principle. If it works, we (Forgie indie designer folks,) can use it. If it doesn’t work we can discuss why we think it didn’t work.

    Matt’s not suggesting a great compromise. He’s suggesting what I said above. However in the Forgie indie designer folk community the focus has been on the vision of the designer, and art over… over… pandering… process… I can’t find a good word. Anyway the suggestion of a not tightly theme focused game might be (likely is?) viewed negatively. The thought was Indie games would follow the path Indie comics did, and develop a coffee house, hip audience, of folks who wanted roleplaying to be more than adventure gaming. I.E. tightly focused thematic games about feelings, culture, and icky stuff.

    Keith is saying, that we (Forgie indie designer folks) have been focusing on Gen Con for years, but most of us don’t go to PAX, and he believes that we’d benefit more from going there. I’m not sure, but I think he was saying that it isn’t necessarily the tight games that aren’t breaking out well, but that “we’ve” been pushing them at the wrong audience. I tenatively agree with him, but haven’t been to PAX. I’m going to try to get to PAX: East, and from there weigh Gen Con versus PAX: Prime, as the summer convention I want to cover.

  15. clyde says:

    IF there’s more can we do this in person? That took me like 50 minutes to type.

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